How to annoy a Catholic July 22, 2007
Posted by Paul Edwards in Catholic Theology, Praying to the Saints.trackback
Michael Voris of St. Michael’s Media here in Detroit is aghast at my claim that I am as holy as St. Paul. I made the statement in response to his attempting to justify praying to the saints in heaven on the grounds that, by virtue of their position in Heaven, they are holier than believers on earth and therefore have an “in” with God our prayers don’t.
The biblical facts are, the righteousness St. Paul possessed on earth was not his righteousness, it was the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him, the same as mine:
“For (Christ’s) sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” (Philippians 3:8b - 9)
This righteousness was not imputed to St. Paul by any effort of his own, but rather by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ given to him as a free and unmerited gift, same as me:
“I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ who lives within me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20)
“For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves, but the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:8 - 10)
Even after this righteousness of Jesus Christ was imputed to St. Paul, he understood himself to be the chiefest of sinners and the least of all the saints: (1 Timothy 1:15; Ephesians 3:8), same as me.
Nothing about the fact that the saints are in heaven and we are on earth makes them any more holy than us in terms of our standing with God. Their struggle with sin is certainly ended, so in that sense they have an advantage we do not. But saints in Heaven are still in a state of incomplete redemption, just as we are. We are all waiting for the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23), which will be completed at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-56), at which time God “will transform our vile bodies to be made like unto his glorious body” (Philippians 3:20,21) and we shall finally and forever be delivered from “the body of this death” (Romans 7:24).
None of this is true of St. Paul yet, just as it is not true of any believer on earth yet. The dead in Christ (St. Paul and all the saints) as well as those who are alive and remain, have not yet experienced final and complete redemption. So in that sense I (and every believer) am just as holy and righteous as the saints now in Heaven. Thus, their prayers are no more powerful than our own because both are the prayers of redeemed sinners.
How else to annoy a Catholic.
Insist you can talk to God yourself.
Tell him not to call any man “Father”, (in a religious sense)
Remind him Mary was a sinner just as we.
and finally suggest to him that,
In no way can he do anything to help get or keep his salvation
Can you point to me where it says Mary was a sinner?
Oh, and how does annoying Catholics help your cause again?
Mike DJ:
“ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12)
“There is NONE righteous, no not one” (Romans 6:23)
The burden of proof is on you to prove that Mary is an exception.
And when did I suggest that annoying a Catholic helps my cause?
Peter,
I’m annoying you even further by deleting your last comment. If you have something other than an ad hominem attack to contribute I’d be happy to let it stand.
Don Sivyer,
You quote the Bible in saying ‘Tell him not to call any man “Father”’ then you add words that aren’t in scripture ‘(in a religious sense)’. You just made that up. That is just your interpretation. What makes your interpretation right and mine wrong. The origin of Catholics calling our religious leaders “Father” is the letters of the Apostles. On multiple occasions they referred to people they were preaching to as their children. Out of respect and as a sign of humility we call our religious leaders Father. Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great affection for priests and call them “father.” Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as “my son” or “my child” (Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Phlm. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).
Dear Paul,
I am truly (and sincerely) curious: I assume that you ask your family and friends to pray for you (and, likewise, they ask you to pray for them). What if some of your family and friends are in heaven? Does death keep them from praying for us?
Thanks,
~Anthony
(and does that keep us from asking them?)
Anthony,
I appreciate the sincerety of your question and hope you will appreciate the sincerety of my response. How precisely does one communicate with the dead? Where in Scripture is communicating with the dead ever portrayed positively? King Saul attempted to pray to the dead in 1 Samuel 28. It didn’t end well. Where in Scripture are we ever told to pray to the dead?
In Scripture it is always the living who are told to pray one for another.
Death certainly keeps me from speaking to my dead relatives - or dead saints - to ask them to pray for me.
Luke 16:26 says this: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
To me this shows that communication might not be allowed between the dead and the living either.
I pray for all of you daily.. So close, and yet so far.
I must defend my Mother, who has helped me through my life with her Grace.
Although Catholics are not fed Bible “quotes”, our worship is more full of bible than all other denominations. We focus on the old testiment, the new, and the gospels at every mass, which we know we are required to attend for the good of our souls.
Does anyone recall how the Angel Gabriel hailed Mary saying she was “full of grace”? How can you be “full” of grace”, where sin still has a place?
Common sense tells us that GOD would not find His home in the womb, in the bloodstream of a sinner. Mary chose a perfect life, but by God’s gift of fullness of grace, and she brings us to her Son.
And to think we are all the same in God’s eyes? Same in dignity, yes, but is there anyone disturbed by the fact that they say they are saved, accept Christ in their heart, and still are impatient with their kids, or lie, or allow lustful thoughts?) Don’t let your dialogue be between you and your pastor. Any good religious points you to the Lord, and He will bring you to His Truth. It is a hard road, not many choose the narrow gate, and it will tkae the rest of your life.
And, by the way there is only One Truth. Though our culture suggests you pick a truth any truth. As you fight the culture war, consider this.
And I have been praying for all of your conversions from a very young age. And for mine. That we all may see His love and Truth!
its funny how people, especially other Cristians love to critizize the Catholic church…. u do realize that Catholics were the first cristians, and any other religion derived from it has been the choice of a person who suddently felt they “didn’t agree” with the TRUE Cristian religion…hmm reminds me of a disobedient child who disagrees with their parent… such a shame.
Respectfully, Karen, Catholics were not he first Christians. The book of Acts clearly states, “The DISCIPLES were called Christians first in Antioch” (Acts 11:26).
The Catholic Church in its various forms throughout history, including its present one, is not infallible nor above criticism. My faith has not derived from the Catholic Church in any way simply because every pope has excluded faithful Christians like me from “the one true Church.”
My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device nor creed;
I trust the Ever Living One,
His wounds for me shall plead.
I need no other argument,
I need no other plea.
It is enough that Jesus died
And that he died for me.
You keep trusting your Church, Karen. I’ll keep trusting the one who loved the Church and gave himself for it.