The Truth About High Point Church and the Gay Gulf War Veteran August 14, 2007
Posted by Paul Edwards in Homosexuality.trackback
The mainstream media wants you to believe that a conservative evangelical church deep in the Bible belt has refused to bury a Gulf War veteran because he was gay. Some in the Christian media want you to believe that the church hasn’t shown the love of Jesus to a dead man’s family. Neither is anywhere near the truth.
Here are the facts. High Point Church, a non-denominational church in Arlington, Texas, had been praying for Cecil Sinclair after Cecil’s brother, Lee (the only member of the Sinclair family who was a member of the church) requested prayer for his brother who had been awaiting a heart transplant. When Cecil Sinclair’s health became critical last week, the family called a staff member from the church to be with them at the hospital. In the hospital, in the moments immediately following Mr. Sinclair’s death, the family asked the staff member if the church would be open to holding a memorial service for their loved one. The staff member assured them the church would be available to help the family in any way appropriate, a response any pastor would give in that situation.
Cecil Sinclair was not a member of High Point Church, yet this church selflessly and sacrificially ministered to his family in the wake of his death, preparing and delivering food for the family and one hundred relatives and friends, along with many other expressions of kindness. The church offered to produce a video retrospective of Mr. Sinclair’s life for use during the memorial service. When the family provided the pictures to the church it was then that the church learned of their intention to make the memorial service a celebration of Cecil Sinclair’s gay lifestyle. One of the photos provided by the family “showed a man with his hand touching another man’s genitalia,” along with other inappropriate photos, according to a statement on the High Point Church website.
The family also requested that “an associate of an openly homosexual choir” officiate at the service and that the homosexual choir sing during the service. “It became clear to the church staff that the family was requesting an openly homosexual service at High Point Church - which is not our policy to allow,” the statement on the church’s website said. After initially agreeing to host the memorial service, the church informed the family it could not do so based on the direction they were taking service. The church then secured - and paid for - another location for the memorial service, which the family declined. The church also produced the memorial video without the inappropriate photos.
High Point Church did not refuse to host the funeral of a gay man, as is being widely reported in the mainstream media. The church refused on biblical principle to allow a celebration of the homosexual lifestyle in its sanctuary, a decision most theologically sound churches would make under similar circumstances.
It’s not surprising to me that the mainstream media would misrepresent the facts. But the response of some in Christian media has been even more disappointing. High Point Church and its leaders are being accused by Christians of not showing love to the family by not hosting a celebration of his gay lifestyle. I suppose visiting Cecil in the hospital, sitting with his family after he died, preparing meals for the family, paying the rent on an alternative venue, and producing an appropriate memorial video don’t qualify as “showing love” to the family? Others are calling it a “missed opportunity” for the church to reach out to the gay community. Still others have suggested that because homosexuality is a sin like any other sin, the church’s decision not to host a gay man’s memorial would prohibit it from holding memorial services for anyone because, after all, we are all sinners.
These people are missing the point. The church did not refuse to host the memorial service because Cecil Sinclair was gay. They refused to host the memorial service because the family was turning it into a celebration of the man’s sin - his homosexual lifestyle. Churches and ministers bury sinners every day. But we don’t highlight their sin on the big screen while we are doing it. We exalt Christ. We proclaim the gospel. And we celebrate the triumph of the cross over sin and death, none of which the family had in mind for Cecil Sinclair’s memorial service.
High Point Church’s principled and biblical decision was the right one, as is evidenced not only by just how unpopular it is with the main stream media, but also by the knee-jerk and ill-informed response of today’s culturally-savvy, but biblically illiterate Christians.
Listen here to Paul’s interview with Pastor Gary Simons of High Point Church.
No, it’s the hatred, stupid. High Point Church showed us that it doesn’t follow the teachings of Jesus. I seem to recall that Jesus was regularly excoriated by the “religious” of his time for hanging out with publicans, prostitutes and other notorious sinners. He was accused of being a partier and drunkard!
You can babble on all you want about High Point Church’s “principles,” but in end, the church came up very short when compared to what Jesus did and taught. (Cf. also the parable of the Good Samaritan if you need to relearn “who is my neighbor?”, just in case you’ve somehow forgotten.)
“Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.” High Point Church FAILED miserably. The justifications I’ve read here are simply appalling. It’s justifications like yours that have just about ensured I’ll never darken the door of a church in the future. This “principled stand” is just a cover for hatred of this generation’s scapegoats, just as prior churchy generations vilified people who drank socially and went to bars, got divorced, were women who weren’t content to be homemakers or people of a darker skin tone than was acceptable to the congregation.
–Deana Holmes
mirele@sonic.net
Sorry Deana but you missed it. Jesus may have hung out with the sinners but did not commit, or condone those sins or the sinners. He did tell them though (if they REPENTED of their sins) your sins are forgiven now go and SIN NO MORE! He most definetly did not tell them to go ahead and keep living the life you were living(a sinful one) BUT, to give up your life and follow HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have decided to follow Jesus, I am an ex drunk, ex drug addict, and sinner of the worst kind and now I go back to those people to tell them Jesus loves you and wants to take you out of this life style of death and destruction and give you new and everlasting life.
I have to agree with this decision not to allow this perversion to take place, even at such a time as this. I lived a homosexual life for 14 years, then God opened my understanding. I repented of this perversion, and submitted all of my heart to Jesus Christ. God’s word is black and white, and those who live a homosexual life will be judged according to His word. The body of Christ cannot compromise for the sake of tolerance. To allow pictures that promote this lifestyle, and homosexuals to sing during the service is unacceptable in a bible believing, bible teaching church. This decision was made by this church not because they didn’t care about this man, but because they love the Lord Jesus Christ and are not willing to compromise, as this world does, for the sake of all getting along. When God reveals Himself to you through His word, you will begin to understand how a Holy God absolutely hates sin and doesn’t grade on a curve. Jesus says it all in Luke chapter 13: “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Well said Paul.
The basic fact here is that salvation is not to those who are in themselves righteous, but those who have recognized their sin, and repented (changed). If this man’s family instead wanted to celebrate his sin, I commend the church for their rightful stand in not celebrating that which is an afront to God.
As Pastor John Samson wrote: “When we commit a sin, at that moment our desire to sin is greater than our desire to obey Christ. I think that is the most haunting thing about the sins I commit. That at that particular moment when I sinned, the sin was more appealing to me than obeying my Lord. This is the godly sorrow I believe, that works repentance.”
A church should not take part in celebrating those times in any of our lives when we loved our sin more than our Lord.
Now this is refreshing!
Eddie G.;…… Me too!!!! …….. Well said!
And such were some of us, BUT we are washed (clean), we are sanctified (set apart..purified), and we are JUSTIFIED (just as if we had never sinned), in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Can it get any better than this?
Gloriously saved 35 years ago, and I still haven’t gotten over it.
“Oh the wonder of it all”.. just to think, that God loves me!!!!!
Now sings my soul..HOW GREAT THOU ART!
Leaning on Jesus
Leaning on Jesus
Safe and secure from all alarms!
“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation,” Hebrews 2:3
Indeed; there will never be a sweeter story! It is WONDERFUL!
A poem often quoted by the late G.B.VICK.
Sin is a monster of such dreadful mien;
To be hated, need but be seen,
But seen to often, face to face;
It is first despised, then pitied, then embraced.
Another one not attributed to any one in particular.
Sin will always;
take you farther than you had wanted to go,
cost you more than you were willing to pay,
keep you longer than you had planned on staying.
There is pleasure in sin, but only for a season.
The High Point Church was correct.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood.
The church was in the wrong. The church’s leaders behaved rudely, thoughtlessly, callously, duplicitiously, and without kindness.
What would Jesus do?
Certainly not break his word to a grieving family and throw them out of his church.
Our God is Holy, Holy, Holy!
God is pretty clear in His word: Homosexuality is a sin. It is not “The Sin”. It is one among other sins, but it is still a sin.
As a church we are called to be the salt of the world, not the sugar.
We are not here to please people; we are here to please God.
Acts 5:29 “We must obey God rather than men”
And God is not on the fence on this issue. The church had to make a decision: go with God or with men. They made the right decision.
God bless them!
It is your idiotic assumptions that High Point was acting so called christ like. You christers area all the same. You are filled with hate and wish retarded prejudicial ideas! I hope this country follows places like Europe and puts a muzzle and collar on your hate speech in America. You have no right to continue with this line of thought!
C Rooker,
And everyone here at the God and Culture Blog feels YOUR love, as well. You obviously didn’t take the time to actually read what this church as done to express the love of Christ to this family. You are blinded by your own hate. We’re praying for you and we love you.
Paul
Paul, C Rooker speaks for a segment of the homosexual population — the radical activist wing — that truly wants to silence speech to advance the “gay” revolution. That is anti-freedom and un-American. Most Christians have no clue as to the totalitarian impulses of the homosexual movement. As one homosexual activist put it, the struggle between legal “gay rights” and religious freedom (to oppose homosexual behavior) is a “zero-sum” game. Maybe it will take Christians being thrown in jail in this country for believers to wake up in this nation. For more info on the homosexual agenda, see Americans For Truth’s website at http://www.americansfortruth.org. Terrific piece, Paul!
C Rooker,
Hate speech?? Really? You speak of putting a muzzle on Christians and you call us hateful?
As Paul pointed out, the church offered to pay for another venue, fed all those who attended, and also put together a video without the materials they found objectionable. That’s hardly hate.
We’ve come to a point in this country where disagreement has been equated to hate. If that is truly the case, and you truly feel that way, then I pray if we ever see “hate speech” legislation pass in the future, that it also holds your feet to the fire.
Soli Deo Gloria
C Rooker
I was always fascinated by people like you. Why does the homosexual community need the church’s approval? Why the need to even have a memorial service in church? Why the need to have a religious service at his funeral? Why the need to be a Christian service?
I would think that out of all religions, a homosexual person will avoid Christianity because its teachings clearly call her/his lifestyle immoral.
So why do you feel the push the homosexual agenda into Christian churches?
Who is the real enemy here?
Let me say it plainly, even if everyone on the earth would agree with that lifestyle, the fact still remains that homosexuality is immoral. And you know what, most of them if they are honest will admit it.
Our God is a God of grace and He is able to forgive anyone who repents (regardless of how many sins or what kind of sins he/she did). But make no mistake, our God is Holy, and He is not playing around with sin. The wage of sin is death…
Love is patient, love is kind,
Love does not insist on its own way.
Love bears all things, believes all things,
Hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails.
- I Corinthians 13:4-8
Jesus walked the earth for us. His life more than his death defined Jesus, but current religious expression too often emphasises only his death. Early Christians did not use the cross as a symbol, they used a fish. That is a more fitting expression of the example of Christ. He called us to be fishers of men.
The modern mega-church build large edifices more like Yachts than fishing boats. Those who are drowning in the sea of life are ignored and rejected.
High Point does not dave one person, does not heal one soul. That is done by Jesus. He said “I am the way”. High Point, New Hope, Lakewood, and all the rest are servants of Christ and have lost their way to the degree they think that they have any right to judge anyone. Yet they do.
You “hate” the sin and love the lover. Sin is of the earth and man belongs to God. When you reject the man, you reject God.
You love to throw scripture around, but scripture is rather like statistics, you can make it mean anything you want. Jesus when dealing with the religious establishment of his day knew this so he spoke in very simple terms.
It seems that homosexuality is the greatest sin a person can commit today. When asked about which of the commandments was the greatest, Jesus said simply that there are but two commandments, Love God and Love thy neighbor as thyself.
God does not ask High Point to Monitor sin in others. God does not ask High Point to separate themselves from the world of sin. God asks High Point to do what he has asked us all to do. Love.
We are given Gods Love through His Grace, and we are to give as freely of that love as it was given to us, It is not some treasure to hide and hoard. Through the act of submission in recieveing his Love and letting flow through us to others who do not yet know his Love, we are healed.
Sin is of the earth and Love is of God. We are to focus on God not the earth. We are to focus on Love not on sin. Like Christ we are to love all people not cast them away. If you have Christ in you heart and his love abounds in you no sin has power over you - not your sin or the sins of others.
No was the wrong answer for High Point to have given. I am a bit confused about the awful consequences of having pictures of men hugging men and and kissing each other. The disciples did that. Just as with anyone pictures of intimate acts of arrousal are unacceptable for any sexual preference in public, not just church.
So a gay man is given a service and his gay friends come and celebrate his life, how does this act of Love diminish the Church? It is not like the service was going to be held during the main worship service(s). Everyone who walks in the door to High Point is a sinner and no more or less a sinner than the next person. Everyone who stands in the Pulpit is a sinner, no more or less than anyone else. How do those who call themelves Christians square their obsession with sin wth God’s “obsession” with Love?
Jesus said that as you have done to least of these so you have done to me. I guess homosexuals in 2007 are about as “least” as you get in the Chruch’s eyes. If Jesus were to send word that he was coming and he had a man who was dying with him. If he said that by the time he got there, a service would be needed so He could bury this man. Would you turn either man away? Or would you start justifying in you mind how restrictive Jesus would be in how the service would be conducted.
If He were as restricitve about who gets his Love, we are all in a lot of trouble. Thankfully High Point is not Representaive of Jesus, just of a group of men who have decided they are the way.
Roy writes: “How do those who call themelves Christians square their obsession with sin wth God’s “obsession” with Love?”
The same way Saint Paul did in Romans 1. We love the sinner enough to tell them the truth. The truth of God’s word is our judge - not the opinions of any man or church. And God’s word condemns SIN - in all of its varieties. The sin of homosexuality is not the greatest sin. But homosexuality has been made into a god to be worshipped by radical gay activists. “I will have no other gods before me,” Jehovah said.
God isn’t obsessed with “Love.” He IS love. God is obessed with His glory. And nothing that would have taken place in that memorial service would have put the spotlight on God. High Point Church made the right decision, as evidenced by the hateful reaction of posts like yours.
Ben
“Who is the real enemy here?”
You have nailed the only important question to be asked.
When we have the correct answer to this, then it all becomes crystal clear.
One final question; Who is able to defeat “the real enemy”?
Now we have the question and the answer.
God bless you brother.
Roy
At what point then does the church say anything about anything? If loving someone is only offering encouragement and kind words then what was Paul doing condemning the immoralities plaguing the corinthian church. If you want to be honest here then read the preceding 13 chapters of 1 cor. God is love and He also is the Truth.
D Sprague
Awe, isn’t it precious how you twist the word of God to your own pitiful interpretations.
Over the years, in my own families Baptist church in Texas, I heard many times about a key aspect of our faith.
Never, Ever consider yourself to be the equal of God or Jesus.
However, with every written word, statement and moral interpretation you falsely claim to have inherited the right to judge and condemn.
It is sad what your doing to our wonderful faith. I wish many of your followers who are lost and deluded could see what God is really about, and not what you want it to be for your own benefit…
I pray every day for you. A simple prayer-God-please take care of those that would prefer me dead. Amen.
Craig,
Who said anything about prefering you dead? Seems like it is YOU who is asking your god to kill me. It never ceases to amaze me how those committed to the homosexual agenda reflect on others the hate in their own hearts.
How have I “twisted the word of God”? Have you read Romans 1? How do you interpret it?
Craig,
I speak to you as a former homosexual, no longer in bondage to that perversion, and want you to know that Jesus Christ will set you free from you bondage. I KNOW FIRSTHAND AND WHEN I WAS STILL LIVING THAT LIE, THE WHOLE TIME I KNEW DEEP IN MY HEART IT WAS WRONG!!! People need to understand God’s absolute holiness, such a holy God cannot and will not allow homosexuals into His kingdom. This sin and all sins must be punished according to God’s word and His righteousness. For those who refuse to repent, even though God loves them, they WILL face the judgment of God because of their disobedience. I commend these folks at this church for standing firm in the faith. “This gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing”….
Hmmm.
Look into your own hearts. Mine is fine.
Who said anything about being homosexual?
Hmmm. Judgement? Pre-judgement? Rushing to judge? Placing yourself in the role of God and Jesus yet again?
By the way, since my grandfather was a preacher, I’ve read the whole book, many times.
Your particular focus and interpretation is the key to your displeasure, rather than your contentment.
And Laura?-Your a mess.
And I’m praying for you.
Paul Edwards shows his total inability to hear any discussion but his own. Paul I challenge you to quote one “hateful thing” that I said in my comment. Disagreement is not hate. I know and understand that God is Love. It is repeated over and over in the four gospels. I can read just as well as you. It also says that what is not of Love is not of God. Paul in Romans does not write about what we need to tell others, he is talking about how we deal with ourselves.
God can be obsessed with Love or himself as he has three parts. When he walked the earth all he did was talk about Love. When God walked the earth all he did was accept everyone as they were and let Love heal them. There is no Hate in anything I have posted here. If you find hate it may just be that it in yourself.
Dennis, Paul was not “condemning the immoralities plaguing the corinthian church”. He was condemning their behavior. Christians have a hard time with Paul because he speaks of a complex world. We are man and spirit. We aim to live without sin yet in the flesh are doomed. That duality is a bit more than the black and white, goodand evil world most Christians want. As evidenced in just this series of posts people can find hatred in the Word.
That happens when we try to determine what is right for other people. Please find me a passage where Jesus tells us to tell others how to live their life. We are to spread the word of Jesus’ Love for all mankind, saint and sinner. We are never to judge.
Paul had the task of fathering an infant Church where religions of the day were filled with temptation for New Christians. Then there were the issues where just being human presented the temptation to fight among other Christians about unimportant vestiges of the Old Law.
Our only marching orders give by Christ himself are to Love. We are on our own incapable of Love. We yeild to his will and in his Grace he give us Love. We are bound by his second commandment to then share that Love freely. Churches want to make rules. Jesus gave us only two: Love your God and Love your neighbor as you Love yourself.
God is Love and what is not of Love is not of God.
Roy
Was it “love” at the temple when he over turned the money changer’s tables? Was it “love” when he spoke. “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!”, seven times in Matthew 23?
He did display disgust for sin.
Don, Jesus was fully man and fully God. Another difficult concept to get ones mind around. There is a whole theological arguement over the idea of the possibility that as fully man Jesus could sin. Rather like the question how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. If Jesus was fully man, it would be meaningless unless he had the traits of a man, and men from time to time get mad.
Turning over the money changers tables was an act against an act, not against those who were perpetraing the act. Jesus loved the money changers enough to turn the tables over and show them their acts were not acceptable. Jesus was fully God however, and God can make those decisions. We are not called to judge or condemn people. We are called to discernment for our lives and our actions.
We are carrying on a mostly civil discussion of different understandings of the teachings of Christ. Paul and James had similar differences of understanding. Jesus calls us all to what he wants from our lives. When he calls a person to the Ministry clearly that is a calling that has a responsibility to be clear about His Word.
When Ministers set themselves above God by making rules that are not of God, then there will be woe onto them.
In Matthew 23 Jesus is setting up his leadership of the Church on earth. It is Christ who is the head of the Church and Woe to any who do a list of things - hence the repeating of the Woe seven times. One of those things was “for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” It is an injucntion against Misiters that preach that which is not of God and call their followers, as did the Scribes and Pharisees, to follow them and not “suffer” them to enter into the true light.
Jesus wants us to give over our lives to his Love so we may sin less and become perfect. That perfection will not be on earth, but it begins here. Paul tells us that as a child we do childish things. When we are of the earth and focused there we do earthly things like judge and hate. When we are of the Spirit we focus on the Spirit and allow Jesus Christ to lead us. We come to Church for Fellowship and Worship. No Church is asked to impose Dogma. When a Church offers the Good News of God’s Love in the Life of Jesus Christ, they have given the greatest gift that can be given. Through Love and Fellowship a person finds their path to yeilding their life to God and his Love. From there it is between a man and God as to what is right for him.
If we are truly yeilded to God we still err and sin. When we condemn people and cast them away we run the serous risk of blocking the path to Christ and for that we shall have to account for. That does not separate us from God’s love or salvation, but unless we ask for forgivness of such acts we are partially and of our own mind separated form God. To me that is as much Woe as any man should ever want - to be self-separated from the Love of God.
Like the poor, on earth, Sin is ever amongst us. No sin is greater or lessor than any other and stones need not be cast by any but the sinless. To my accounting the only one that should have a stone in his hand Is Jesus Christ. He carries not a stone but a Rock, and that Rock is Love.
Difficult for Whom? I Corinthians 5:21;
Roy
The issue is about the “sin”, you are correct . If the “act” of Jesus was against the acts alone why the personal condemnation by Jesus of “hypocrites”?
Jesus is capable of love and condemnation at the same time. And as far as I have read in these posts, the condemnation is against the sin and its promotion. Could your disagreement be with the rejection of this particular sin? Paul Edwards gave a fitting reference to Romans 1, which you blew off, but stills it refers to the participants in this particular sin as “reprobate”, and as to giving them over to it.
Your position at best is difficult, if not outright rebellious.
Although you quote some scripture you also wrest the scriptures to your destruction.
This is my final volley you may have the last word.
May God bless you with discernment and wisdom.
Don
The first time Jesus cleared the temple in John 2, the disciples mentioned the Psalmist saying “Zeal for your house will consume me.” Jesus revealed in that passage his desire for the House of God to remain a holy place.
The next time Jesus came to the temple to find it being defiled was in Mark 11 and on this occasion he stated “My house will be called a house of prayer…”
Thank you High Point for keeping the point clear!
Can anyone please tell me where in the Bible that Jesus Christ, [in his own words], said anything that condemned homosexuality? I know about the numerous things he did say such as, judge not, lest ye be judged yourselves.
I know what the Old Testament really says about this subject and I know about your misinterpretation of those Mosaic laws. If we are to live according to the Mosaic law [ and not under grace], I would like to remind all of you that you have sinned and have forgotten to follow all the other numerous commands which pertained to those Mosaic laws. If you want to see which ones you do not follow go back to the Bible and read in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and see about all those other hundreds and hundreds of laws which you do not keep. [Make sure that you keep telling yourself that we do not live under the Law but by the Grace of Jesus]. You have chosen to pick and choose the two laws that, [according to your interpretation], condemns male homosexuality just to justify your hatred of gays and your other bigoted ideas about anyone who disagrees with your mandates. There are no Mosaic laws that “condemns” sex between two females. I’ll bet you didn’t know that! So what have you got to say about lesbianism?
You are always harping about the “gay agenda”, [whatever that is]? I think you should be more concerned about your own sins, prejudices and bigotry and leave the rest in the hands the Lord. He knows what to do.
Chuck
Read John I , the entire chapter. Then answer these question.
Who is the Word that was in the beginning with God, and who is God, and then who was the Word that became flesh.
Now read II Timothy 3:16
Now answer this question, Is the Word, God according to John I? If so, is ‘all scripture’ given by God, according to II Timothy 3:16? Here in is your answer, all scripture originates from God, who is the Word, who became flesh and dwelt among. But of coarse your question is not prompted by a sincere desire to know, I suspect, is it?
You are correct by saying that the Lord knows what to do. He does and he did. He gave us His written Word which you have already attested to its validity by quoting it as a authority.
Sorry, but apparently you also just disagree with God on this subject.
Who do you suppose will win?
I find it shocking that some who profess the Christian faith ask the question “Where in Scripture did Christ Himself condemn _________ (usually homosexuality)?”, when all of Scripture is God’s Word, not just the words in red letters in most bibles. The entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation and the 64 books in between, are ALL God’s words.
In Matthew 19 Jesus affirmed that God from the beginning created us MALE and FEMALE for the purposes of sexual relationship. Jesus never affirmed anything other than MALE and FEMALE sexual unions. To suggest that Jesus would approve of homosex because he never condemned homosexual unions is to ignore the TRUTH that the ONLY unions He ever condoned were those between MALE and FEMALE.
Why do you focus on what Jesus DIDN’T say when you clearly can see what He DID say?
Craig, I praise God for your assessment of my life, which proves that I am on track and you, my friend, are still lost in sin. May God draw you to Christ, grant you true eternal life, and open your understanding to His word and His character. I do not wish to debate with you, you may have the last word, God have mercy on your soul….
Wow. Way to pull a 1984 on the title, stupid.
“Wow. Way to pull a 1984 on the title, stupid.”
And it’s important to point this out, why?
Because for all the ranting about proper Christian behavior on this site, y’all sure have an aversion to acting it out. Don’t apologize for bad behavior, just make believe it never happened. I think Jesus commands that in one of the apocryphal gospels- the Gospel of Hyppocriticus, or something like that.
Paul
Good point!
Boo,
I don’t know how you define “proper Christian behavior” down there in the Atlanta area, but from what I have seen so far - as the moderator of this site - it has been the anti-Christian, pro-homosexual lobby who has displayed irreverant, blasphemous, and vulgar behavior both at this site and in response to the same article at Townhall.com.
There is nothing improper about Christians behaving in accordance with the truth: “I rejoiced greatly when I found of thy children walking in the truth, as we have received commandment from the Father” (2 John 1:4).
Here at this blog we are making it our aim to please GOD, and while we don’t won’t to unecessarily offend anyone, we have necessarily offended you because you refuse to hear truth.
“Here at this blog we are making it our aim to please GOD, and while we don’t won’t to unecessarily offend anyone, we have necessarily offended you because you refuse to hear truth.”
Which you define as calling people stupid, then nuking it to pretend you didn’t. You and I seem to have quite different ideas of the truth. (I’m also not from Atlanta.)
It’s just funny that the people who are always ranting the loudest about Christian values seem to have the hardest time living them. Ss I recall Jesus had a rather dim view of such people. Something about them being whitewashed tombs full of corruption or some such.
“it’s the economy, stupid” was meant to make the point that people were missing the point. “It’s the lifestyle, stupid” was meant to make the point that people were missing the point. But because I’m not interested in UNCECESSARILY offending, I changed the title.
Boo - You use an anonymous email address originating from Atlanta. If you are so committed to what you advocate, why is it necessary for you to hide?
High Point Church certainly LIVED their Christian values by serving the family of this deceased veteran. Re-read the article, and this time don’t do it selectively, focusing only on a title you found offensive.
Oh, it’s not just the title. There’s also the fun little insults by all the Good Christians in the comments sections, followed by the whole passive-aggressive I’m-praying-for-you-and-I-love-you tripe. It’s a great scam the religious right has developed. Be as hateful as you want, and blame it all on God. Spew nastiness at people, then convince yourself it’s really “love” with a cheap little “I’m praying for you.” But hey, what do I know? It’s possible God is actually fooled by your little charade. After all, you appear to have fooled yourselves. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, those of us who aren’t always trying to convince ourselves of our own righteousness are out actually living, as perfectly as our imperfections will allow, the ideals you so shallowly pretend to.
Don,
The last word of course will be had by God.
May God bless us all with discernment and wisdom that his will be done.
Love,
Roy
YOU GO SIR. U WORK FOR GOD AND TRUTH NOT FOR MAN AND LIES. U KEEP UP DOING THE REAL TRUTHFUL WORD AND WORK OF GOD, IF U DONT THEN U BECOME A HYPOCRITE. THEY JUST WANT EXCUSES FOR THEIR EVEL BEHAVIOR. THAT IS SATAN FOR U. KNOW ITS HARD AND HEART BREAKING AND TIREING, BUT GUESS WHAT?? U WILL GET MORE CROWNS IN HEAVEN MAN. THIS I A WONDERFUL THING U R DOING. IF U DID NOT DO IT LIKE THIS, U’D BE A LIER, CHEATER, THIEIF, NONBELEIVER AND SATANTIC WORSHIPER ADN I’;D NOT LIEK U AT ALL. THANKS FOR BEING FOR GOD AND LAWS AND MORALS AND TRUTH AND JESUS AND REAL BIBLICAL TEACHINGS. GOD BLESS
I really appreciate the manner and spirit with which Mr. Pearson has expressed himself and his opinion that is reflective of many of us in the body of Christ regarding the situation.
It is my belief that the Bible was written by men of God , not the pen of God. It has caused as much pain as blessings.
Is is so sad to see that people that consider themselves Christians deny God’s word.
See, the Bible itself contains over 2,000 claims that like: “Thus said the Lord”. If all of those are lies, then why even bother listening to what it has to say?
The truth, however, is that Satan attacks the church in the same way it has always did:
Gen. 3:1b “Did God actually say….”
I have had enough of people that are not sure of anything, except the fact that they are unsure of everything.
If God did not reveal himself and His will, then we are lost.
But He did reveal Himself and His will, and we can’t claim ignorance.
Is there a Ted Haggard at this Church? It seems like the clergy is overwhelmed with self-hating homosexuals and pedophiles. Why are they so obsessed with what others do in their bedrooms? Why is homosexuality elevated to such a lofty concern when eating pork is not? The Bible contains all kinds of archaic notions that are not acceptable in a 21st Century society. There is only one explanation as to why the clergy chooses to ignore the biblical advocacy of parents having their disobedient children stoned, but promote the clear condemnation of homosexuals. That explanation is that it appeals to the bigotry of the ignorant masses who put money in their collection plates.
Hudson,
What does Ted Haggard have to do with the principled stand this church took? As far as I know, High Point Church has no connection with Haggard’s former church. It was Gary Sinclair’s family that wanted to put his bedroom on display, which indicates an obsession with his bedroom. Such a display would be inappropriate for both homosexual and heterosexual public memorials.
No one at HPC condemned Gary Sinclair. They rightly chose not to allow a public display of sin. There is a major difference between that decision and condemning a homosexual. Re-read what I wrote about the selfless and sacrificial way this church served this family in Christian love.
Proverbs 26:4 “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him”.
26:5 “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit”.
Somethimes ther is not too much to say!
Does anyone in here believe that the deceased’s mother would send porn to a church?
Has anyone considered that the reason the family accepted the offer from High Point was because of the deceased’s brother. I sincerely hope he has not been traumatised by High Points treatment of him and his family in their time of need as I am afraid he will be.
I’m not surprised the family told High Point to keep their money. Especially after Simons used an analogy to MURDER (not adultery/divorce) to describe their opinion of Mr Sinclair. (Wasn’t that loving quote from Simons issued in the local paper on the day of his funeral?). After that analogy, I’d be surprised if the family felt High Point was not praying with them, but AT them.
The Gay Mens Chorus? In my opinion, they’re about half as racy as Pat Boone. Besides, do you think that they were going to get up there and do some ‘Last Temptation of Christ’ opera? At a funeral?
Besides, I don’t know why High Point is upset with the press coverage. Apparently they are proud of everything they did/said. What are they so mad about? That someone would actually talk to the family and print their side of the story along with High Point’s? So why are they upset that other people are judging them because the judge others? So some secularists called them bigots? Well the secularists doing that name calling aren’t claiming to be moral arbiters and didn’t compare a dead veteran to a murderer in the local paper because he was in a Gay relationship.
Paul, I’m glad you are on this chat. Why did you leave out the Murder analogy from your article while you enthused about all of the pastoral care given to the family by High Point? Why was that?
Paul,
I think Hudson was probably refering to Ted Haggad in the hypocrisy of his situation. He preached against homosexuals, but was one himself. You know kinda like Shakespear said,’ me thinks thou doth protest too much’.
What exactly do you mean by his bedroom was on display and they (the Sinclair family ) were obsessed with his bedroom?
Tom,
If you will listen - really listen - to the interview I had with Pastor Simons, you will learn that it was a reporter who brought up the murder analogy. Pastor Simons is right when he says that the sin of homosexuality is the same as any other sin, including adultery, stealing, drunkeness, and even muder. Pastor Simons wasn;t saying that homosexuality IS murder; he was making the point that ALL of us have sinned, and NONE of us should have our sin on display at a memorial service. The actual point was that no one would expect to see pictures of homocides at the memorial for a murderer. Therefore, no one should expect to see pictuures of homosexual acts at a memorial for a homosexual. Homocide and homosxuality are both SIN and should not be celebrated.
The church isn’t upset that the family’s side of the story is being presented in the media. The church is rightly defending itself against the charge of the media that they denied a funeral to a man because he was gay. THIS IS NOT TRUE. They refused to allow a celebration of the homosexual lifestyle in their church. There is a difference.
May,
The family is obviously obsessed with Gary Sinclair’s bedroom and they wanted to put it on display (at least what goes on in the bedroom) by showing him engaged in various lewd acts, including holding another man’s genatalia in his. That picture is not appropriate in ANY setting, let alone a church.
Paul,
You are right . Pictures as you have decribed would be inappropriate , but I think that is stretching the facts. There was a picture showing Cecil and his brother John in Hawaii some years ago , fully clothed , one with his arm outstretched, hand open in front of the other brother. It wasn’t what would be called ‘lewd’ by any strech of the imagination .Any picture that was objectionable to the church could have been removed for the service. I would imagine the family would have been alright with that. As for the all gay choir, Cecil had been a member of this national known choral group and as Dr. Seelig said ,sang ‘Amazing Grace’ hardly a gay pride song.
I think that if people really understood the Christians who really understood the Bible… they would understand that Christians do not hate gays.
Again… a REAL Christian does not hate GAYS, or ANYONE for that matter (by real Christian I mean one who is filled with the Spirit and walking according to the teachings of Scripture)
REAL Christians don’t hate GAYS… but sometimes there are Christians who aren’t REALLY practicing their Christianity who hate GAYS
Sometimes there are also REAL Christians practicing REAL Christianity who LOVE gays but are perceived to HATE them because they point out that the Bible says its a sin
I think this is the most important point… a REAL Christian who is practicing REAL Christianity will NEVER HATE A GAY PERSON… BUT… they will many times be PERCEIVED as hating simply because they point out that the Bible says its a sin… fair enough?
I am a REAL Christian who practices REAL Christianity. I do not HATE gays… but I know from reading the bible that the Bible says its a sin.. just like it says my lust is a sin… who am I to condemn??? I can’t condemn… but I can point out the facts.. the Bible says its a sin… what is so hard to see about that… who cares if Jesus ever directly mentioned it.. the whole Bible is God’s word… Jesus is God… hence, if the bible is God’s word.. then the Bible is Jesus’ word. Since its mentioned in the Bible as sin.. then Jesus actually is saying its sin…
There are so many things in this life that will always be debatable and meet controversy, but only when the trumpet sounds will the truth be known, for many it will be to late. Each Organization whether it be a church, mosque, temple ,the Trump Building, the Yankee stadium all have rules that govern them, they maybe bylaws , house rules for some and the Bible for others, if that is what they are mandated to follow, then they have all rights to do so. If you don’t like what the captain of ship has to say or wants to enforce, get off the ship and stop complaining. May God touch everyone and reveal his truth to them.
I agree Lesley, High Point had the right to refuse to have the memorial service . I do wish that they had handled the situation better and been more honest up front , minus all the smoke screen of ‘ The glorification of the homosexual lifestyle and ‘lewd ‘pictures etc. He was gay and I think they did not want a gay man’s service at their church.
Sin is created in the heart. The act is a mere byproduct of what the heart is feeling. Therefore the actions of someone can not be judged good/bad unles you know the persons heart. It is always better to be the one who gets stepped on in Jesus’s name then to step on someone in the name of Jesus.
I agree with High Point Church. I said it before and I will say it again. There is nothing “loving” letting people celebrate a sinful lifestyle. Which is what the family of this vet wanted to do and per eyewitnesses, they did do at his memoral. Love does not mean you shouldn’t correct or rebuke sinful behavior of people around us.
In fact, 2 Timothy 3: 16-17 says “All Scripture is God-breathed and useful for TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING and training in rightousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (NIV) and 1 Corinthians 16: 13-14 says “Be on guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love.” (NIV). God’s word shows us that what we must “do everything in love”, but that does not mean giving into being used to promote sin. God’s Word says we must “correct” and “rebuke” for the person’s benefit, and not to be mean or hateful but to show real “love” by helping those who are lost and in the dark to see the light of God’s Truth. That’s real love! And it is what we ALL need, everyone (even me) has there areas of problems that need God’s saving correction and forgiveness in our life. Not being torreant of wrong behaviors, but standing firm in God’s Word that shows we are all sinful and in need of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. The pastor of High Point Church was showing 1 Corinthains 16: 13-14 as he had courage by standing firm to God’s Word and not giving into the P.C. of the world to say OK we will go against what God tells us is wrong. It wasn’t the pastors own words he was stand strong on, it was the Word of God.
I may not agree with everything that the mega church here at High Point Church says, but it’s stand to not promote a sinful lifestyle was the right thing to do. Not supporting an immoral lifestyle is not being Hateful, but showing Love. Those who do not believe the Bible as God’s True Word, will not understand that and only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes, hearts and minds of those in the dark. Sin comes in many forms, we ALL need Jesus forgiveness.
Paul you were right when you bascilly said on your show that all the negitive attacks against this church and Christians on this subject is a true sign that God’s Word is touching a nerve in this world of sin. Keep up the stand for God’s Turth in these matters and God Bless.
The statement “wondering why Gays want to be part of the church” is also facinating to me. The Gay agenda is to have acceptance & apporval from everyone. It would not matter if every church member in the world approved of their sexual preference. God makes it very clear that He hates sin and it will be punished. Many times punishment comes on earth, but after death they will be judged and go to Hell. That is a terrible place where you are all alone in the dark, hot and thristy. God will NOT be present there, it is for demons. Gays do not realize who God is!! He is everywhere, in the running water at the cool brook. He is in the smell of pine trees, He is the beauty in all things (as the Diamond, Ruby and Emerald). And He is so much more than I can describe or even imagine. He is in everything good & that includes sex in marriage. He describes the realtionship of a Christian with Jesus (God) as a marriage and we will all be at the wedding feast in Heaven. Jesus is the groom, Christians are the bride. This is a sacred and Holy union. This is one of the reasons we object to Gays getting married. I tell you this because i do care & love you enough to warn you and share Gods great love for you.
As I said above, there are many things said in the bible that the Church chooses to ignore. Your bible classes ignore the absurd, factually inconsistent, violent, crazed, and illegal acts that are advocated by the Bible. Don’t take my word on it, go to http://www.evilbible.com, and then compare the passages to your own bible. The point I am making is not that you cannot believe in God or that the Bible has relevance, but, as a rational member of a 21st Century democracy, you must be aware of the implications of living a “biblical life.”
Below is a sample. Check it against your own bible. Then go to the above website and check some more. Then ask yourself why churches single out the treatment of gays as opposed to banning pork and subjugating women (see Timothy).
Slavery Allowed
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Just to make it perfectly clear, the relevance to this debate is why do you ignore certain passages and elevate others? Take a look at the cherished Ten Commandments (which are merely plagiarized from the Egyptian Book Of The Dead), and note that we are not to covet thy neighbors man servant (read slave). Slavery was accepted then, and the bible clearly enshrines it because its authors enshrined it.
Hudson,
There is no equivalency in Scripture between slavery and homosexual practice. Scripture no where commands the owning of slaves and in many places encourages the release of slaves and in all places demands respect and care for slaves. Our modern image of slavery circa the 18th and 19th centuries in no way parallels what slavery in biblical times was like.
On the other hand, the word of God in both Old and New Testaments clearly prohibits same-sex unions and views them as destable. To suggest that the same Bible that speaks of slavery positively and homosexuality negavtively somehow negates what the Bible says about homosexuality is to raise a straw man. Focus your argument on the fact that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexual practice irregardless of what it also says about slavery, which is a seperate issue altogether.
I’m beginning to understand the..”God gave them over to a reprobate mind”..much more clearly now. I must admit, in the past that portion in Romans was a “hard saying” for me, but these discussions have shed a great light on it for me.
Thanks guys for the lesson in God’s Word. When God gives a person over, who else is there?…… “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life”.
It’s amazing how many people on here talk as though they know the Bible so well, when by what they say they CLEARLY do not.
Approaching it logically:
1) Do you believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, and is truthful and infallible, presenting His message to us? If YES, go to #2; if NO, stop, b/c you first have to conquer this objection before you have any basis to proceed, otherwise it’s arguing apples and oranges.
2) Does the whole of Scripture clearly demonstrate that homosexual lifestyles (whether men or women) are considered sin? If YES, go to #3; if NO, stop, b/c you haven’t read or fully understood the whole of Scripture, which mentions this in both the OT and NT pretty clearly.
3) If God considers something sinful, should Christians who claim to follow Him also consider it sinful? If YES, go to #4; if NO, stop, b/c you have then said that it doesn’t matter what God thinks, it matters what YOU think, and that would then make your claims to be a Christian untrue.
4) If we consider homosexuality sinful, should a funeral service/memorial that celebrates a sinful lifestly be condoned by other Christians, especially if it takes place in a church? If YES, go to #5; if NO, stop, b/c then you’re condoning open sin which you know God doesn’t support.
5) This church did the right thing.
It’s really not that hard, folks.
The reason churches are objecting now is because the militant gays are insisting on pushing their way into our domain of marraige and trying to change marriage and society as we have known it for thousands of years. Just the gay parades pushing obscenity in our face and trying to include our children is very objectionable. I hardly noticed my gay and lesbian neighbors before this all started. Maybe to talk to them or to have coffee at their business. But now everything is getting “out of hand” and must be stopped. No normal person i know likes to flaunt their private sex preference like gays do. I am not in the least interested in your sex life so please spare us all and do not shove it in our face & on our children.
Mame
Forty years ago the churches were objecting this issue as they are now. The inability of this life style to procreate is the very reason of the shoving of it in the faces of us all. I suggest this is also part of the same “sexual revolution” that is driving our entertainment industry. Thus the issue that Paul so aptly addressed in this weeks program. May I quote once again; “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood….” We must recognize WHO the battle is against prior to any victory, and then Who is capable of securing a victory! Protect your own.
Paul,
Nice try at obfuscation, but you have not refuted my original point. It is a simple point: the Bible contains all kinds of strange, archaic, and immoral advice and rules. You hide behind the text of the Bible, but cannot defend its literal meaning in its entirety. I picked the above passage regarding slavery quite at random, because there are entire books devoted to analyzing the multitudes of such barbarity found in the bible. Your assertion that slavery was different then is an absurdity. The gladiators who died en masse in the Coliseum were slaves–I suppose one could argue that such a fate is better than a lifetime of working under the whip of a Southern plantation owner. If you choose to ignore secular history, then simply look at what the Bible itself allows in the form of slavery: selling one’s daughter (contextually for sex, inter alia). (See Exodus 21:7-11)
I could just as easily have quoted scripture calling for the execution of disobedient children, blasphemers, and nonvirgin brides.
What do you say about the fact that the Bible calls for the execution of those who work on the Sabbath? (See: Exodus 31:12-15). Leviticus 12 says that women are supposed to live in a tent after giving birth, and must give a burnt offering to the priest for their uncleanliness. I would be willing to bet that nobody in your church abides either rule.
You are absolutely right that the Bible condemns homosexuality. In fact, the Bible orders that they be killed for laying with one another. (See: Leviticus 20:13). Just Google “homosexuals and the Bible” and you will conclude that Paul is much too tolerant for the tastes of the Bible’s authors. The typical citing of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as the statement on homosexuality is the softer message (by the way, read Lot’s story more closely and with an open mind and ask yourself whether you would have offered up your daughters over the strangers). Leviticus is a smorgasboard for the bizarre–read it and Numbers 31 if you need some perspective.
So the question is why pick on gays when the Bible says to pick on a whole host of other people that you do not pick on?
Hudson,
The problem doesn’t lie with the Bible, it lies with your interpretations of it (or maybe mis-interpretations might be a better term). Judging from the points you try to make, you use the same line of thinking that many people do when trying to debate Christianity - that one thing said in the Bible means only what you want it to mean, without regard to whether it is textually or contextually correct in light of the whole of Scripture. In the 5-step outline I gave above, you’re still stuck at #1, b/c you dont’ fully understand Scripture. You have to remember that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. He alone is the only perfect sacrifice for sin - that’s why sin offerings are no longer needed, b/c it has already been done. This doesn’t necessarily render what the OT said to be obsolete, but we are now under grace, not the Law, and our way to salvation is only through Christ. The Law was there to show us that we can’t perfectly keep it - not me, not you, not anyone - so it shows us we are all sinners.
No one is “picking” on gays, this just happened to be the topic of this particular blog. The Bible, in fact, doesn’t say to “pick” on anyone, but it does say that we are to stand for truth, and that we are not to support what is clearly sin in the Bible.
It’s hard to tell where you’re coming from. What’s your stance on what the church did? Was it OK, or not? Do you believe homosexuality is OK, or not, and why? Those would be helpful questions to have a straightforward answer to, if you’re willing.
Gentlemen
This argument is vein.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. I Corinthians 2:14
Without the empowering of the Holy Spirit none of us are able to interpret the Word of God.
I know, Paul, this gets real close to the crux of our debate!
I hope you enjoy this one! It’s free.
I challenge Hudson to read the whole bible. It is just like a mystery story, you cannot just read the front you cannot just read the middle you cannot just read the end. It would make no sense that way, yet that is what people do. The bible is a book that tells how the world began and how it ends. It is a book that has millions of other books written about its meaning. It has lasted longer & sold more than any other book in the histroy of the world. In fact books now adays are obsolete in six months and philophers are still debating the meaning of life. The bible tells you the meaning of life. Even tho the bible is quite complicated it is very simple, you must beleive God. This same theme is througout the bible, yet over and over they forgot God (the “I AM”).
The thing you need to know is that what God has wriiten is for your own good. It is like parents that love their child, they will not let their three year old child eat candy all day. We love to spoil them and sure it tastes good, but in the end the child would die if they do not eat their vegtables and other nurients. God does know what is best for you as the loving parents know.
Which brings me to the pork, when i was young, people died from eating raw pork and it is very hard on your digestive system.