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Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edwards Program heard daily from 4p - 6p ET on AM 1500 WLQV in Detroit. Contact him via email at paul@godandculture.com.
The Paul Edwards Program
Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edwards Program heard daily from 4p - 6p ET on AM 1500 WLQV in Detroit. Contact him via email at paul@godandculture.com.
The Paul Edwards Program
I really struggle with this Calvinistic idea that we are all bad. It just seems to beat down the human being to a place next to scum. Like a lot of doctrines which sects of Christianity adopt, I question how much this idea is taken out of its context. I don’t think Jesus came to this earth to tell us how BAD we are. The idea is awfully convenient to preach though, it keeps people in a constant state of hating themselves, it also justifies the sins that we do, since after all we are sooo BAD. Certainly we don’t measure up to God’s standard but I think this preaching is actually bad in and of itself.
Well… we are bad. Do you think Paul hated himself?
Pixelmaster,
Until you can understand that you are bad, that you can not do good, as those terms are defined by God, you can never truly appreciate what Christ did for you. God became a man so that you can have eternal life, because you are so bad (unholy, not-good, as God is Holy and Good) that there is nothing you can do. The Doctrine of Total Depravity is the key to understand why Christ came into this world as an infant and died 33 years later. Because humans can not do good in God’s eyes without the punishment having been served. The punishment of eternal separation from God.
Pixelmaster,
I have been were you are before and I understand your concerns, however I think that you are mistaken. This type of preaching does not lead to what you may suspect. What it does lead to is a recognition of the God’s glorious Grace and Holiness, and gives him all the credit for our salvation. There is not precedent in scripture for fallen man to boast about himself or anything that he had to do with his salvation. In fact, I find this kind of preaching quite liberating in that it deepens my dependance on God and Christ for my Salvation and Sanctification. Scripture doesn’t warn about teachers and preachers that abase man to much and exalt God to high, it actually warns about preachers that tickle peoples ears and tell them what they want to hear. Could you please give me some evidence that apart from God’s grace man is good in any way?
Gentlemen: That’s nothing. You should get a copy of Timothy Brindle’s “The Great Awakening” and play track 14 “Sanctification Introduction”. Classic Piper. BTW, I have never cared for rap but the whole album is more Reformed than anything I’ve heard since Trudy Poirier’s two albums on the Pear Tree Music label. The best song (?) on Brindle’s CD may be “Faulty Doctrine”; I wish more Pastors believed what Brindle sings (?) on that track.
maybe we should go around saying, ‘we are good, we are good, we are really, really good!’ hmmm, it doesnt sit right!
All,
I hear you on this whole concept. Like I said before, I understand that I don’t measure up to God’s standards. However, I think this doctrine of being BAD is taken way too far. One can realize the greatness, goodness, holiness of God without beating themselves into the ground and have a feeling of worthlessness. People take this idea so far that they call children sinful, depraved etc. I am sorry, I dont’ see it. my kids make mistakes, my kids do bad things, but they are not BAD kids. They are learning through the course of making mistakes in life. I think the same applies to us in some sense. I know the importance of the finished work of the cross and I know that I cannot get to heaven on my own merits. But I can’t accept this low self esteem doctrine of being bad.
Colin, to answer your final question, it would all depend on your definition of good. if you are talking in a human sense I am not sure how God’s grace plays in the brotherly love type of goodness, athiest and people from all faiths display goodness to others. In fact, what troubles me sometimes is I see more caring for human suffering from the secular world than I do from the walls of Gods house. We are busy isolating ourselves from a lost and dying world while they are out there helping people get on their feet again. Like I said, I don’t think god put us on this earth to make us feel like worthless goodfornothings.
Your right Pixelmaster…
God did not put us on this earth to feel like worthless good for nothings… He put us here to glorify him and enjoy him forever… unfortunatly since the fall we are so turned into ourselves that we cannot do that because we cannot get past ourselves. Jesus and the apostles teach consistantly that we must die to self… Jesus even went to so far as to say that he that does not bear his cross (execution device) and follow him is not worthy of him. Our worth in this life doesn’t have to do with being made much of ourselves, but making much of God. If we love God because he is man-centered then WE are man-centered. But if we love God because he is the most beautiful, powerful, perfect and glorious being in the universe and is by very nature consumed in his own glory then we are God centered… That may sound depressing to your flesh but have you ever gone to the grand canyon or anywhere like that? Why do we enjoy those things? Because in enjoying something so magnificent we almost forget about ourselves as we are consumed in the experience, and thats how it out to be with God (Don’t think though that I’m saying God is JUST about experience it’s just an analogy).
Also concerning the fact that man is good because he does stuff for his fellow man, consider this… The Bible says that whatever is not done in faith is sin (Rom 14:23). It is also says all over the psalms and the rest of the Bible that whatever is not done to God’s glory is sin. If you notice in the chain of sin in Romans 1 the act that leads to all the other sins is falling short of God’s glory. So when an atheist who denies God’s existence and has a humanist philosophy does good to his fellow man for the sake of “mankind”, he is elevating man in worth above God which is an idol and is sin… Furthermore we cannot probe into these peoples hearts to see what their motivation is for these actions. I will grant that it is better that they do “good” works, rather than not, but that is just God’s common grace at work to keep the world going relatively smoothly until judgment day when all people will have to answer to God…
I think an important distinction needs to be made here. The doctrine of total depravity does NOT mean that men are as evil as they can be. What it does mean is that evil and sin has infiltrated every part of our flesh. A very big difference.
That said, if we aren’t “bad” or “sinners”, then what do me need a Savior for? [Note: I know this isn't what Pixelmaster was implying, just throwing the question out for consideration]
Thanks Anthony for putting that Note in was getting ready to say that I was not implying this. HAHA.
I do feel it is important to fully understand that our “goodness” will not get us anywhere with God. However, I think too many times this doctrine is run with, I have seen this preached, with emphasis to children. I don’t care for it, when done that way, telling kids they are worthless wreches and oh btw Jesus can make you whole again. I think there is a balance, do we have to tear people down like Piper seems to be doing to get the message out that we don’t live up to God’s level and that Jesus is that answer to our issue of sin?