The Inarticulate John McCain May 23, 2008
Posted by Paul Edwards in Uncategorized.Tags: Ellen DeGeneres, Gay Marriage, John McCain, Same-Sex Marriage
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For weeks now I have been wondering out loud why presidential candidates find it necessary to lower the standards of the presidency by making appearences on the basest of television venues. In recent weeks John McCain has ventured into the hostile environs of Jon Stewart’s The Daily Show, Stephen Colbert’s Colbert Report, and now in what must confirm McCain’s insatiable appetite for self-flagellation, this week he made a very painful appearence on the Ellen Degeneres show where he endured a verbal flogging around the issue of traditional vs. homosexual marriage:
Rather than defend marriage on moral principle as the union of a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation, the establishment of the home as the basis of a civil society, and as a union entered “before God” and in accordance with His laws, McCain offers a compromise which suggests that marriage is first and foremost a “legal agreement” for the purpose of sharing insurance and decision-making, the benefits of which are readily available to same-sex couples. Such a position denies conservative principles relative to the defense of traditional marriage, the first principle of which that marriage is fundamentally about reproduction, providing a context for the stability of society in the rearing of children who have been birthed as a result of the sexual union of a man and a woman.
Ellen denies this fundamental principle of marriage, arguing for same-sex marriage on the basis of erotic love, grounding her argument in the mistaken idea that marriage is a civil right that has been denied to sodomizers and lesbians in the same way this country denied the freedom of slaves and the suffrage of blacks and women:
I think that it is looked at, and some people are saying the same, that blacks and women did not have the right to vote. I mean, women just got the right to vote in 1920. Blacks didn’t have the right to vote until 1870, and it just feels like there is this old way of thinking that we are not all the same. We are all the same people - all of us. You’re no different than I am. Our love is the same.
There is absolutely no correlation between the equality denied blacks and women and marriage being denied to sodomizers and lesbians. All humans, regardless of ethnic or gender differences, have been enowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights on the basis of their common HUMANITY. When Ellen argues that “we are all the same people” she is absolutely correct that in terms of our HUMANITY we are all equal, but she misapplies the equality standard to SEXUAL BEHAVIOR, insisting that there is no difference between the erotic love of homosexual persons and that of heterosexual persons. She couldn’t be more wrong.
Ellen is equal to me in terms of personhood and the individual human rights that accompany personhood. It is a fundamental denial of the human person to deny blacks and women equal status. But no one is denying Ellen and her lover status as persons or the rights that inure to them as human persons. The rights of marriage inure to those who can meet the biological standard necessary for entering a physical union that, with all biological standards being equal, can produce offspring. This is fundamentally the nature of marriage.
To say that because we share the same rights as human persons makes us fundamentally the same in nature and physicality is illogical. I am not the same as Ellen in terms of sexuality. She is a female and I am a male, and as such there are fundamental differences BIOLOGICALLY between us. The female body is capable of carrying and bringing to life the seeds of reproduction, a feat my body cannot accomplish. Have my rights therefore been violated? Obviously not. You can’t fool Mother Nature (i.e., GOD).
To argue that same-sex attraction is a fundamental human right in the same way suffrage is, is nothing more than changing the subject. John McCain allowed Ellen to change the subject and in doing so demonstrated that he is a poor apologist for conservatism on one of the key issues that really, really matters. The only response he could muster was to congratulate Ellen on articulating her position in a very eloquent fashion. Too bad he failed to articulate his position at all.
I hope all this helps those on the religious right realize that the political right doesn’t care one bit about our issues. Many those who have married themselves to the political process will realize that there are better, more Christian, ways to fight our social ills. Maybe, those “evil” lefties who say that legislating values and morals will not work are actually correct. Maybe if we took Jesus’ method of actually caring about people, and trying to make a difference in peoples life’s on an individual level we could make real change. If Dobson took all that money that he uses to people his politicians in office and used it to help the truly needy maybe positive social change will start as a byproduct. Maybe if we stop taking an “US vs. them” approach and start working with them they may see the light that is in us and naturally desire what we have. Until we realize that, our faith will continue to be less appealing to those who are not in the fold. Of course, to some forms of the faith this idea is perfectly acceptable as their interpretation of scripture affirms this notion. I don’t’ by it, those who have these views look very different then what Jesus taught.
McCain doesn’t always make great decisions… a good reason to keep our “knee pads” close at hand. Sometimes being forced down a seemingly undesirable path leads us to an answer not easily discerned at our original position. Right now we seem to be at a three pronged fork in the road:
1. McCain: human..dosen’t always make the right choices
2. Obama: Marxist human…dosen’t always make the right choices
3. Ms. Clinton: human with 80 dead friends…not sure WHAT is going on here
Nancy,
Thought you might like this video on McCain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c&e
Pixelmaster:
I agree that we cannot simply embrace the “right” because they claim to share a view on the issues. The proof really is in the pudding and the pudding isn’t worth eating.
I’m tired of elephants or donkeys. It’s a worn out system and the USA is fast becoming (if not already taken root) as the USSA.
On this topic, it appears that maybe McCain is taking the strategy of going towards the middle. He rejected Hagee’s endorsment yesterday and today rejected Parsley’s, he won’t even talk to Dobson. Maybe the strategy of the Republicans is to ignore the religious right because they will vote for him anyway, after all Obama is akin to Satan himself to many on the religious right. Maybe they want to focus on the middle and let the Dobsonites go by the way side. Very interesting…..Constitution Party folks, Make some noise this november and put your vote outside the republican party.
Saw the video Pixel…I’m SURE they used editing equipment to make it! *; )
Mike and Iggy,
This video and his recent rejections of the far right will do nothing for his campiagn. You cannot ignore the far right and win as a republican. What else would you have the top 1% who have been living large on Bush’s tax cuts? that will not win you elections. You need the sheep who think that you are fighting for their causes all the while not caring at all and doing nothing about them. Remember, 2002 to 2006 all republican majority in every branch, where’s abortion? Still very much legal, why? it’s called political wedge issues. Both parties use them but Karl Rove is a master at it. He knows how to use the religious right as a tool. We need to wake up to that reality. BTW Rove is working on McCain’s campaign.
Nancy,
Of course they did, and come of the stuff needs to be put in proper context. But is does give a good sense of his willingness to cowtow. no suprise there as any politican does it.
Iggy!?!?
Writing-in or voting for Jack Bauer or Indiana Jones won’t get us anywhere but with a Maxist or a woman with 80 dead friends as our next president!?!?!?
Whew…I’m glad that God never leaves His throne… He’s not scared of Maxists or women with 80 dead friends!
Boy, Nancy I am suprised that you are willing to compromise with someone like McCain. There are many arguments on the right that suggest that voting for McCain over Obama will be worse. Here is why, if Obama gets the seat it will galvanize the right, while if McCain get it they will give into his socialistic stances. Don’t let his current pandering fool you, he is only doing it to get the vote. He just recently has shown that he don’t care about the vote by denouncing Hagee and Parsley. And your attitude about it is just the reason why, he will get your vote no matter what. You need realize that you social values vote is only used as a tool. The political right doesn’t care one bit about your social concerns, God is NOT a republican, he cares too much for the poor to be one.
BTW, what is it with the Marxist comments about Obama, where is that coming from?
Pixel…First of all, I didn’t SAY for sure I was voting for McCain or anyone particular at this time. As for Obama, have you checked out his mentors??? After all, these guys can’t “hide” in the internet age. *; ) I am, as many others are, in the information gathering stage. Final votes are’nt in till November… Sometimes, our paintbrush of perception - discernment *: ) is larger than it should be…nobody even knows who the VP nominees will be at this time. Nobody, but GOD that is and as far as I am concerned, He hasn’t told me yet.
Oh Yeah, read this…this link even mentions our friend Alan Keyes!
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2289
Thanks Nancy for the info, BTW, don’t take my comments as an attack, test is aweful at showing intent.
Also regarding the article, I love the well oiled tactic of asking a question in the title. Is Barack Obama A Marxist Mole?, Back in 2000 “Did John McCain have an illegatimate child?” “Is Al Gore out of touch with reality?” “Why did Al Gore say he invented the internet?” “Is John Kerry unpatriotic?” They don’t know they are “just asking” whink, whink
This is something that Drudge and FoxNews does ALL THE TIME. Anytime I see that I automatically discount the intent of the article. It is not journalism it is propaganda.
Why DID Al Gore say he invented the internet????…once it’s out there…I’m just say’ng…and *; ) attack away…I haven’t had any rocks come through the screen…YET!
That Stephen Colbert is one funny guy.
One reason I *might* vote for McCain (and I will if the alternative is Senator Clinton) is that unlike Bush, he is actually willing to talk to people with whom he disagrees. His conversation with Ellen Degeneres was respectful but firm, and bringing up the Bible and misguided perceptions of “god’s will” in a non-Christian forum would have been pointless.
But please keep up this “not of this world” attitude you’ve got. The more that real people see what you’ve got to offer, the fewer Christian converts there will be.
I thank a Sovereign God, Skeptimal, that the salvation of sinner’s does not depend on anything I have to offer. Most “of this world” people are turned off by the Bible and God’s will, but that doesn’t discourage me one bit from bringing up the Bible and God’s will. It is the only hope misguided sinners have!
And since this is my blog, I WILL continue to focus our attention on the Bible and God. It is, after all, a blog titled “GOD and Culture.” No one is making you frequent this blog, Skeptimal. Except maybe the Sovereign God whose Book and will you seem to despise.
Paul,
If you’ll look back, you’ll see that I never said you shouldn’t bring up god, the Bible, the Southern Baptist Hymnal or anything else in this forum or any other. Despite the hard work of the religious right, this is still a free country. I was just traying to say that it didn’t make sense to write off John McCain, who actually defended your own misguided position in a way that showed he can respect the dignity of those with whom he disagrees.
For the record, I don’t hate the Bible. I also don’t hate god (any more than I hate Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Buddha, Allah, or the god and goddess). Am I angry about what some of your brethren have done and intend to keep doing to the U.S.? You bet.
Why do I come here? Mainly for the same reason I visit other Christian, conservative or Islamic fora from time to time. I think we’re all better off if we remind each other that reasonable people of good conscience frequently disagree.
My motives aren’t pure, of course. No misguided sinner’s are.
Thanks for the video Paul! McCain’s willingness to meet with people with whom he may have disagreements shows his desire to bring this country together. Instead of demonizing those “Godless sodomizers,” Mccain showed true backbone by showing his open-mindedness, rationality and compassion on the issue. McCain is a stand-up guy for going on the Ellen show, and although I am planning to vote for Obama, this video gives me more respect and admiration for Mr. McCain. I was a lifelong republican until George W. Bush. If the party, however, were to breed more people like John McCain, I may come back one day.
John,
It takes no backbone to face those with whom you ostensibly hold an opposing view and merely capitulate to their view. Your dislike of George W. Bush is precisely because HE is a stand up guy for refusing to bow to liberals who define “bi-partisanship” as: agree with us 100% of the time.
The words of Jesus serve as warning for the United States: “It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gommorha in the day of judgment,” and the words of Solomon, “He that sits in the heavens shall laugh; He shall hold them in derision.”
So go ahead and be as open-minded as you like. You stay on the broad road that leads to destruction and I’ll keep to the narrow way that leads to life.
That is a pretty amazing usage of scripture to backup your point, cherry picked to perfection.
Iggy,
I didn’t realize you were an expert at scripture exegesis. So please tell me how exactly the verses cited have nothing to do with the context of my response to John.
You and Skeptimal and Pixelmaster seem lately to have nothing to contribute to this blog but antagonism. It won’t be tolerated much longer.
Paul,
Your responses have been uncharacteristically crass, I suppose the doctrines of grace are not needed when dealing with others.
GWB has been a dream for the far right, as a former righty, I can say that it is the actions of GWB to the prodding of the far right that has caused me to reject it. In fact, the ONLY time the far right is disappointed with GWB is either when he logically drifts to the center like mentioning that Global Warming is real or working with those evil Dems on immigration or mentioning that the Christians, Jews and Muslims serve the same God. However, vetoing every bill that a democratic congress puts forth and signing most that a republican congress puts forth is perfectly acceptable. In fact this is necessary, what the far right doesn’t understand is, working with the other side is necessary, although not always, like Mr. Edwards would say. The far right would be happy if working with the other side would never happen. We Christians understand duality like none other, God vs Satan, Good vs Evil, Republicans vs Democrats, this is normal and none dare capitulate. What about Torture? well this topic is either ignored or justified for example, the owner of this blog, mentioned it twice recently, one time to outright deny that it is true, and discussed when it is justified with Al Mohler. Of course, it is justified laying out the worst of all scenarios and say see, it is OK to do it then, ignoring the fact that this administration tortured many innocent people that they deemed “enemy combatants”. torture doesn’t work, it makes those fighting out our side more unsafe, it worsens our status in the world and because and Republican administration is doing it, the far religious right will say nothing critical about it. There are many other issues that Bush has done to the liking of the far right, Tax Cuts for the wealthiest people in this nation, slashing many needed social programs that help the poor, allowing no bid defense contracts to right wing organizations like Blackwater. There are many, many others policies that GWB has brought forth to the liking of the far right that has given us just a glimpse of what would happen if they truly gained control. I am with John, while I don’t always agree with McCain and I don’t think his strategy will work I do like overall that he is a real politician, real politicians work with those they don’t agree with or don’t like to bring out the best for America.
“You and Skeptimal and Pixelmaster seem lately to have nothing to contribute to this blog but antagonism. It won’t be tolerated much longer”
What the heck? as I stated in the previous post is seems like you have an awefully short temper lately. I have been having a good back and forth with Nancy, not saying anything “offensive”, yeah I don’t agree and put my opinion forth about it but man, why the attitude? I am serious when I ask, is there something going on to bring forth these responses? I think this might be a prime example of putting emotion and intent behind text. I don’t think I been too antagonistic, I do however, speak my mind on issues. I think Iggy at times might get too worked up but from reading his posts I can understand where he is coming from. I guess I say, finally, this blog to me has been so great because you allow the decenting voices, I would hope that you would not censor because some comments might be taken out of context, have a good Memorial day and enjoy this weather.
Pixelmaster,
When comments focus on the subject matter of the posts I have no problem with the dissent. Lately, however, the comments have been personally directed at my faith and worldview.
Dissenting voices are welcome, and until recently I think you and Iggy and Skeptimal have understood that my posts come from a worldview with which you disagree. You will not succeed in changing my worldview or the nature of this blog through your comments. It’s fine to post comments that disagree with what I’m posting. It’s another thing altogether to attack me for holding to a worldview which you know coming in you disagree with.
As for Bush vetoeing every Dem bill and signing every Republican bill, I think you have Bush confused with Bill Clinton! Bush has vetoed a total of 3 bills in 7 years, two of which were related to partial-birth abortion. Clinton on the other hand vetoed 17 bills in his first term alone!
I hope you realize by now that I am not a member of the “far right.” I disagree with the far right and even President Bush on a number of the issues you list above.
I do value your contribution to this blog, Pixel. Your exchange with Nancy has been informative. That’s the kind of exchange we need, not merely pithy posts like Skeptimal’s accusing me of cherry picking the Bible to fit my point. I have worked very hard to be a faith exegete of Scripture and do take offense when someone accuses me of being anything other.
Well, I would hope that I am not attacking you or you worldview, everyone has a right to it. I will at times mention comments that I hear on your show that I think are from outer space, like the instance when you brought up Jimmy Carter’s critism of the administrations use of torture and you flat out said that this country does not torture. I think at this point it is pretty set in stone we have, and it doesn’t look good to the rest of the world. Anyway, you do have a good blog and I like kickin’ it with all different folks.
This is just too great, had to post it. One of the blessings of advancing age…not needing near as much sleep so you can experience more life which of course equals more fun! The tag line for these guys is just too great: We watch FOX so you don’t have to.
Just maybe when McCain was on Ellen…he said more than we thought…
http://www.newshounds.us/2008/05/09/fox_campaigns_for_mccain_with_body_language_analysis.php
Nancy,
I LOVE the newshounds site, you are right, in the internet age, information is always out there. These guys can no longer say stuff and later say, “What, I never said that!?!?” I love the internet
Well, Pixel…I just have to confess dispite all your excellent discernment qualities…I have never watched Fox News unless I’m at my mom’s…she’s a sharp chickie and I can’t distract her long enough to change the channel! Total truth…I hate news…but love to watch the reaction of people to it! I try really hard to keep my mind in a “No News is Good News Zone”. That is except for the GOSPEL
Paul,
“I didn’t realize you were an expert at scripture exegesis. So please tell me how exactly the verses cited have nothing to do with the context of my response to John.”
First of all, I don’t you to sensor the comments, I think this blog has been great and would like to contribute. Secondly, the scripture you used has nothing to do with Politics, the United States or the Presidential ticket. John was simply stating that McCain is atleast willing to entertain that he is not 100% right about everything and in Politics that is an admirable thing. We live in a society that is pluralistic, from a christian stance there are many fallen and lost. Christianity allows for no compromise, social environments require it. There is more to the Bible, society, and christian living than the conservative side of the faith would have us to believe. Of course, a statement like this to a conservative echos compromise, worldly, and unchristian. The conservative side of the faith stopped being christian back in the late 70’s when is decided that GOP meant God Only Party. Politics corrupted the people and they now look to their new god(s) in the Republican party to solve their issues instead of Jesus Christ. Thanks for allowing decenting voices, I am not insulting you or your faith I amsimply calling it like I see it. God is not republican, and believe it or not you don’t need to carry a republican card to be saved.
Iggy,
I seriously believe and I think that goes for the majority of Christians that you are correct in suggesting that God is not a republican. He doesn’t need to categorize His position it is always shall we say…RIGHT *: ) As Christians the only plum line and level we have to line ourselves up with His rightness are His Living Word and His indwelling Holy Spirit.
While we were changed at the point of our regeneration, the rest of the process remains an adjustment of degrees over a lifetime. While this process unfolds for each of us over our lifetime, for some the ah ha moments come quicker than for others, but this in no way sets one of us over another as far as being “more” Christian. We all carry the same Holy Spirit. Are there really absolutes??? From my point on the ah ha scale I say there is only ONE, GOD HIMSELF. But, the measure of how closely we fit the absolute is found in the Living Word inspired by the Holy Spirit.
This Living Word provides all we need for life and godliness. Godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. As we incorporate Biblical truths in our lives and LET THIS WORD LIVE IN EVERY ARENA OF LIFE, we become the happiest of men.
Which McCain will the right get? Who knows, it appears he is trying to get Hilary voters. Read the following:
“Mr. McCain tried to give them many, in addition to heaping praise on Mrs. Clinton. He recited a litany of issues about which he disagrees with President Bush (stem cells, climate change, spending, detainee treatment, the initial handling of the war in Iraq) and another litany of Democratic senators with whom he had worked closely on legislation (Edward M. Kennedy on immigration, Russ Feingold on campaign finance reform, Byron Dorgan on uncovering Jack Abramoff’s activities). “You will see a dramatic increase in women in my administration,” he promised. ”
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/mccain-courts-democrats-independents/
Yet he called the Habeus Corpus decision “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=25225
The “left” has an appropriate name for McCain the PanterBear.
opps
I misspelled I meant PanderBear not PanterBear